Italian schooner Rosa Madre

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jan-olof
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:07 pm

Italian schooner Rosa Madre

Post by jan-olof » Sun May 23, 2021 12:05 pm

The next question, where I have ambiguities in my sources, concerns the Rosa Madre (built 1923, 137 tons).

In my copy of Navi Perdute (1952). it is written (if my translation is correct ...).

(Lost) January 1st, 1944. Porto San Giorgio (cause unknown).

In the 1997 version it says that she was sunk on the 31st of December 1943 off Porto San Giorgio by the British submarine Sickle.

In another document it is claimed that she was sunk by a British destroyer off Recanati on the Dec. 31st, 1943.

Is any of the above versions correct?

Best regards,

Jan-Olof
Platon Alexiades
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:49 pm

Re: Italian schooner Rosa Madre

Post by Platon Alexiades » Sun May 23, 2021 7:25 pm

Hi Jan-Olof,

There were several Rosa Madre in the Italian Merchant Navy. I am not certain of the fate of the one built in 1923 but the one lost to HMS Sickle was sunk on 18 July 1943 (this USMM entry of 31.12.1943 is therefore incorrect and this Rosa Madre was a fishing vessel of 39.44 GRT built 1937 requisitioned by the Regia Marina as auxiliary minesweeper R.164.

I am sure our Italian friends will be able to enlighten us about the one built in 1923.

Best regards,

Platon
de domenico
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:44 am

Re: Italian schooner Rosa Madre

Post by de domenico » Mon May 24, 2021 4:09 pm

ROSA MADRE R 164 of 39 grt/1937, a fishing motorschooner (motoveliero) was sunk with gunfire by HMS SICKLE on 18.7.1943 7 n.m. ESE of Gorgona island (off Leghorn)
ROSA MADRE B 504, of 25 grt/1937, a fishing motorschooner (ketch), was sunk in Genoa by air raid after 8.9.1943
ROSA MADRE II B 667, of 29 grt/1930, a motopeschereccio, was scuttled in Bastia on 10.9.1943, later salved in French hands
ROSA MADRE (not requisitioned as far as I know) ex SANTA LUCIA ex SS. VERGINE DI BONARIA, a cargo motorschooner (ketch) of 108 or 137 grt/1923, was also claimed in "Navi Mercantili Perdute" as sunk by gunfire of HMS SICKLE off Porto San Giorgio on 31.12.1943. My other sources (e.g. AIDMEN "Repertorio di Marina Mercantile") do not confirm this fate, but do not know her end.
Platon Alexiades
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:49 pm

Re: Italian schooner Rosa Madre

Post by Platon Alexiades » Tue May 25, 2021 12:58 pm

I can only add that the supposed attack by HMS Sickle on 31 December 1943 is an error. She was on her way to Beirut after a patrol in the Aegean and carried no attack on that day.

Platon
jan-olof
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:07 pm

Re: Italian schooner Rosa Madre

Post by jan-olof » Tue May 25, 2021 7:37 pm

Hello Platon and Francesco,

many thanks, once again, for the excellent information that you both provide. It struck me that although sources differ as to her fate they are remarkably consistent wrt date and location. So after some searching the following information revealed itself:
5945KC/S T O O 0908 T O I 0922/31/12/43

FROM: NAVAL HARBOURMASTER BENEDETTO
TO: 'SM' DISTRIBUTION

MOST IMMEDIATE

1601 AQUILINIA TANKER. 1605 SEGUIME SE PUOI 1608 ALFIO D.
ROSA MADRE AND TWO HS-BOATS OVERDUE AT 0830. ON ACCOUNT OF
LEAK, ESTERINA TOWED INTO RECANATI BY SEGUIME SE PUOI.
FROM 0030 UNTIL 0100 ALL SHIPS WERE HEAVILY SHELLED FROM
THE SEA NEAR PORTO SAN GIORGIO BY DESTROYER((S)).
SHIPS WHICH HAVE ARRIVED HAVE NO DAMAGE. SINKING OF
ROSA MADRE AND TWO HS-BOATS IS PROBABLE.
DEFE 3 634 page 159

The question now becomes, what allied units might have been involved here?

Best regards,

Jan-Olof
Platon Alexiades
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:49 pm

Re: Italian schooner Rosa Madre

Post by Platon Alexiades » Wed May 26, 2021 11:05 pm

Hello Jan-Olof and Francesco,

It looks like this Rosa Madre was sunk on the night of 30/31 December 1943 by the destroyers HMS Teazer and HMS Penn. They were on a sweep from San Benedetto to Ancona and drove a schooner ashore (ADM199/642, TNA). Unfortunately, I have no more details but Porto San Giorgio listed in the DEFE3 signal is within this sweep area.

Best regards,

Platon
jan-olof
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:07 pm

Re: Italian schooner Rosa Madre

Post by jan-olof » Fri May 28, 2021 12:47 pm

Hello Platon,

an excellent find, many thanks. Looking through the intercepts a bit more revealed this:
5945 KC/S TOO 1312 T O I 1316/31/12/43

FROM: NAVAL HARBOURMASTER BENEDETTO
TO: 'SM' DISTRIBUTION

'ROSA MADRE' IS LYING ALMOST ENTIRELY SUBMERGED 150 METRES FROM THE SHORE, 2 KILOMETRES NORTH OF PUNTA SAN GIORGIO. A GOOD, LARGE LIFE-BOAT IS ON THE SURFACE. REMOVAL CAN TAKE ((PL))ACE IMMEDIATELY. THERE IS NOTHING TO SALVAGE. THE CREW AND ESCORT DETACHMENT HAVE BEEN RESCUED.
DEFE 3/634, page 219

Best regards,

Jan-Olof
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