Submarine or tuna attack on Oct. 2nd, 1940

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jan-olof
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Submarine or tuna attack on Oct. 2nd, 1940

Post by jan-olof » Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:42 pm

On the above date the following report came in from the 3rd Mine Sweeping Flottilla:

Does this message refer to a real sub attack (from H 49 ?) or was the crew of M 16 mistaken.

Best regards,

Jan-Olof
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Platon Alexiades
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Re: Submarine or tuna attack on Oct. 2nd, 1940

Post by Platon Alexiades » Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:30 pm

Hi Jan-Olof,

I think there were porpoise frolicking off the Gironde on that day. No torpedoes were fired at M 16 by any British (or Axis for that matter) in the area. This was not the only case on that day. HMS Tigris on its way to a patrol off the Gironde also reported torpedo tracks at 2140 hours in 46°44' N, 05°28' W. This was also bogus.

The British submarine did carry out an attack with four torpedoes at 0716/5 October and this was on the Italian submarines Giuliani and Baracca escorted at the time by M 9 and M 13 (in Quadrat 6889).

Best regards,

Platon
jan-olof
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Re: Submarine or tuna attack on Oct. 2nd, 1940

Post by jan-olof » Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:14 pm

Hello Platon,

many thanks for the quick reply. It occurred to me that the KTB entry omitted important information, the square was AN 6897 but perhaps that doesn't change anything :)

Best regards,

Jan-Olof
Platon Alexiades
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Re: Submarine or tuna attack on Oct. 2nd, 1940

Post by Platon Alexiades » Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:58 pm

Hello Jan-Olof,

Regarding the AN 6897 position. The porpoise hypothesis probably still stands. However, the submarine H.49 was operating on the same longitude but about 30 miles to the south. She had actually attacked with four torpedoes a convoy at 2121/1 October (53°11.5' N, 04°34.5' E, this was off the SE corner of the German MDA). Could this refer to the same attack?

Possibly, if one of the participants made an error in the time and/or position. Sometime records contain errors so it is not impossible...

Best regards,

Platon
Darius
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Re: Submarine or tuna attack on Oct. 2nd, 1940

Post by Darius » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:36 pm

Yes, for me it looks like the 02.10., 02.45 Uhr, message is the time of the message, not the attack. :?:

Regards

Darius
Platon Alexiades
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Re: Submarine or tuna attack on Oct. 2nd, 1940

Post by Platon Alexiades » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:54 pm

Hi Darius,

Many thanks. If the time recorded is the time of origin of the signal and not of the actual attack then the only problem is that of the latitude. Perhaps the minesweeper or the submarine had a defective compass? Or an error in copying the position in the submarine's report or in the minesweeper's signal? Anything is possible...

Best regards,

Platon
jan-olof
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Re: Submarine or tuna attack on Oct. 2nd, 1940

Post by jan-olof » Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:57 pm

Hello Darius and Platon,

I suspect we need access to a more detailed KTB, if such a thing exists, in order to figure this one out.

Best regards,

Jan-Olof
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crolick
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Re: Submarine or tuna attack on Oct. 2nd, 1940

Post by crolick » Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:55 am

Jan-Olof do we know the companions of M-16 while attacked?
And Platon what is written about the convoy that H.49 attacked?

AN6897 is not far from 53°11.5' N, 04°34.5' E (~20 Nm) so that would make pretty good match.


Andrzej
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Platon Alexiades
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Re: Submarine or tuna attack on Oct. 2nd, 1940

Post by Platon Alexiades » Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:31 pm

Hello Andrzej,

I do not have a copy of the 3.MSFL KTB and therefore do not know the composition of the convoy. I will try to check other sources to see if I can come up with something.

Best regards,

Platon
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