Hi all,
During Operation Mincemeat on 23/8/41 Force H: CV Ark Royal, BB Nelson, CL Hermione, DD Nestor, Forester, Fury, Foresight, Encounter detached to E off Sardinia attacking cork woods off Tempio, Sardinia, while CM Manxman laid a minefield off Leghorn. Previously to the attack over Tempio Force H was divided in 2 groups. One of them was composed by CV Ark Royal, CL Hermione and one DD. Do you know which one?
Thank you very much
Jordi
Operation Mincemeat
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Jordi Comas
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Brian Corijn
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Re: Operation Mincemeat
Hi Jordi,
I checked file ADM 199/657 which hold a report on this operation.
There is no mention in the report that 'Force H' was divided into two groups.
Actually it mentions that the whole force turned into the wind (as for Ark Royal to fly off 10 Swordfish).
I also checked the logbooks of HMS Ark Royal (ADM 53/113632), HMS Hermione (ADM 53/114419) and HMS Nelson (ADM 53/114765) and in all three logs there is no mention of the force being divided into two groups.
As i have said before no logbooks for destroyers are available as almost all have been destroyed after the war (unfortunately).
Kind regards,
Brian Corijn
Admin. Allied warships section, uboat.net
I checked file ADM 199/657 which hold a report on this operation.
There is no mention in the report that 'Force H' was divided into two groups.
Actually it mentions that the whole force turned into the wind (as for Ark Royal to fly off 10 Swordfish).
I also checked the logbooks of HMS Ark Royal (ADM 53/113632), HMS Hermione (ADM 53/114419) and HMS Nelson (ADM 53/114765) and in all three logs there is no mention of the force being divided into two groups.
As i have said before no logbooks for destroyers are available as almost all have been destroyed after the war (unfortunately).
Kind regards,
Brian Corijn
Admin. Allied warships section, uboat.net
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Jordi Comas
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:21 pm
Re: Operation Mincemeat
Thank you Brian,
In teh web: https://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chron ... _Royal.htm
If you read de entry for 23/08/41: At 2000 in approximate position 39-30N, 6E, ARK ROYAL, HERMIONE and one destroyer detached and made for a position to the west of Alghero. The NELSON and four destroyers proceeded to the approximate position 41-45N, 7-30E to provide distant cover.
I think she was Nestor as the most modern destroyer of the five, but......
Regards
In teh web: https://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chron ... _Royal.htm
If you read de entry for 23/08/41: At 2000 in approximate position 39-30N, 6E, ARK ROYAL, HERMIONE and one destroyer detached and made for a position to the west of Alghero. The NELSON and four destroyers proceeded to the approximate position 41-45N, 7-30E to provide distant cover.
I think she was Nestor as the most modern destroyer of the five, but......
Regards
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Brian Corijn
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:31 pm
Re: Operation Mincemeat
Hi Jordi,
I like the naval history website a lot, but i prefer to stick to my primary sources.
As i said the report states that the whole force turned in the wind and this is backed up by the three logs i have available. If indeed a destroyer was detached with Ark Royal for flying operations (a common practice), i doubt if it was HMAS Nestor, as, according to the report in ADM 199/657, she had the Senior Officer of the 8th Destroyer Flotilla on board.
No idea who at that moment the Senior Officer of the 8th Destroyer Flotilla was though ?!
HMS Faulknor had left Gibraltar to refit in he U.K. on the 9th. Perhaps Capt. de Salis remained at Gibraltar to lead the flotilla at sea from one of the other destroyers of the flotilla. Another possibily was that Cdr. A.F. Pugsley temporary was in command of the flotilla (he had lost his ship, HMS Firedrake, on 23 July 1941).
I don't know if someone has more information on this ?
Kind regards,
Brian Corijn
Admin allied warships section, uboat.net
I like the naval history website a lot, but i prefer to stick to my primary sources.
As i said the report states that the whole force turned in the wind and this is backed up by the three logs i have available. If indeed a destroyer was detached with Ark Royal for flying operations (a common practice), i doubt if it was HMAS Nestor, as, according to the report in ADM 199/657, she had the Senior Officer of the 8th Destroyer Flotilla on board.
No idea who at that moment the Senior Officer of the 8th Destroyer Flotilla was though ?!
HMS Faulknor had left Gibraltar to refit in he U.K. on the 9th. Perhaps Capt. de Salis remained at Gibraltar to lead the flotilla at sea from one of the other destroyers of the flotilla. Another possibily was that Cdr. A.F. Pugsley temporary was in command of the flotilla (he had lost his ship, HMS Firedrake, on 23 July 1941).
I don't know if someone has more information on this ?
Kind regards,
Brian Corijn
Admin allied warships section, uboat.net
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Jordi Comas
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:21 pm
Re: Operation Mincemeat
Thank you Brian one more time!
Regards
Regards
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Platon Alexiades
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:49 pm
Re: Operation Mincemeat
Hi Jordi and Brian,
I second Brian's views on the naval history net site. Although it is a very interesting, it contains many mistakes. I am not trying to belittle those who created the site as it is inevitable that errors will occur considering the amount of data it has. It would be interesting to find out which sources they relied in certain cases.
Regarding the question if Pugsley could have been D.8 on HMAS Nestor, I have to reply in the negative. See his memoirs "Destroyer Man".
All the best,
Platon
I second Brian's views on the naval history net site. Although it is a very interesting, it contains many mistakes. I am not trying to belittle those who created the site as it is inevitable that errors will occur considering the amount of data it has. It would be interesting to find out which sources they relied in certain cases.
Regarding the question if Pugsley could have been D.8 on HMAS Nestor, I have to reply in the negative. See his memoirs "Destroyer Man".
All the best,
Platon
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Jordi Comas
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:21 pm
Re: Operation Mincemeat
Thank you Planton
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Jordi Comas
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:21 pm
Re: Operation Mincemeat
Hi one more time,
During operation Mincemeat Force H was divided when Ark Royal launched her airplanes against Tempio. BB Nelson and its group was 75 miles North of Ark Royal group. So, the destroyers also were divided. 1 for Ark Royal and Hermione, 4 for Nelson.
Regards
During operation Mincemeat Force H was divided when Ark Royal launched her airplanes against Tempio. BB Nelson and its group was 75 miles North of Ark Royal group. So, the destroyers also were divided. 1 for Ark Royal and Hermione, 4 for Nelson.
Regards
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Jordi Comas
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:21 pm
Re: Operation Mincemeat
From history.net 1939-1945
23 August 1941. From Ark Royal and Nelson files:
At 2000 in approximate position 39-30N, 6E, ARK ROYAL, HERMIONE and one destroyer detached and made for a position to the west of Alghero. The NELSON and four destroyers proceeded to the approximate position 41-45N, 7-30E to provide distant cover.
Destroyers attached to Operation Mincemeat: Nestor, Forester, Foresight, Fury, Encounter
Perhaps if any of you have this book: Battleship Nelson: Story of H. M. S. "Nelson" by Ronald F. Careless could find the answer about which destroyer was with Ark Royal..........
Thank you very much
Jordi
23 August 1941. From Ark Royal and Nelson files:
At 2000 in approximate position 39-30N, 6E, ARK ROYAL, HERMIONE and one destroyer detached and made for a position to the west of Alghero. The NELSON and four destroyers proceeded to the approximate position 41-45N, 7-30E to provide distant cover.
Destroyers attached to Operation Mincemeat: Nestor, Forester, Foresight, Fury, Encounter
Perhaps if any of you have this book: Battleship Nelson: Story of H. M. S. "Nelson" by Ronald F. Careless could find the answer about which destroyer was with Ark Royal..........
Thank you very much
Jordi